The business of Kyle: when do brands start calling?

Kyle Sandilands has launched his subscription platform. The next question is obvious: when do the advertisers arrive?

Head of data and media at Spinach Advertising Ben Willee joins us to explore what agencies are really looking for, how valuable paying subscribers are compared to traditional radio audiences, and why first-party customer data has become the new currency of media.

From founding partners and live events to merchandise, brand-funded content and creator commerce, we look at the commercial opportunities—and the challenges—waiting for Kyle as he attempts to build Australia’s biggest direct-to-consumer media business.

Listen to Ben speak here:

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The business of Kyle: when do brands start calling?

Or read the transcript here:

Craig Bruce (Host)

Ben Willee, Executive Director of Media and Data at Spinach Advertising, is back on the podcast again. G’day, Ben.

Ben Willee

G’day, Craig. G’day, Irene.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Mr. Willee

Craig Bruce (Host)

Hey, we wanted to pick your big brain on the business of Kyle and, uh, to get your perspective as a marketer and brand specialist for the opportunities and challenges that face Kyle in this new venture of his. Just as a starting point, do you think it’s possible to build a large subscription media company without brands eventually becoming a part of the equation?

Ben Willee

Yes, I do. I think there’s lots of precedent for that. And, I think if this works, we’re perhaps witnessing the biggest shift in audio history in Australia since Kyle and Jackie O left Southern Cross Austereo. And you remember the effect that had on ratings, that rippled through for many, many years. So, yes, I think this is absolutely huge and I’m fascinated by it.

Irene Hulme (Host)

So Ben, what does that look like? What does a successful project look like in that regard?

Ben Willee

I think if he gets 30,000 people to pay, every radio executive in Australia is gonna call him a visionary. And if he only gets 3,000, suddenly everyone’s gonna remember that they thought it was a stupid idea to start with. But if we look at, I looked at survey 4, right? So the cumulative audience for breakfast in Sydney, and feel free to challenge my mathematics, for people 10 plus is about 3.57 million. So 30,000 people is less than one percent of the cumulative Sydney radio audience. And let’s take it down another level to what his audience was. So his cumulative audience was about 700,000, which is ironically almost identical to the average audience in Sydney. Now, if he wants 4% of that is, 30,000 people. So we’re not talking about a huge amount of people have to change their behaviour, but we’re talking about a huge amount of people who have to change the way they think. 30 years they’ve been told that radio is free, and all of a sudden they’re gonna have to stump up 99 bucks a year for it.

Irene Hulme (Host)

How valuable is 30,000 from a client’s perspective?

Ben Willee

Well, you’ve hit the nail on the head there, Irene. That number isn’t really what matters. So, I suspect there will be a part of it that gives it a broader reach to advertisers. So, whether that’s a free section, whether that’s a podcast, whether that’s a best of, and that’ll be the bit that the advertisers want. Because 30,000 super engaged people isn’t that great. Advertisers want reach. And that’s a big part of what his success was for many years when he was on Sydney, before he became difficult and problematic for advertisers, was the enormous reach and the enormous cume that that show gave you.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Spinach Advertising based in Melbourne. Just before we go any further, so how much damage, has been done in that market for Kyle specifically? And this is not about Melbourne, I know this is a national kind of idea that we’re talking about here. But, the Kyle and Jack Melbourne experiment was a massive failure on so many levels, and I wonder whether that changed perceptions of Kyle specifically or whether it reinforced them. I know he wasn’t everyone’s favourite in Melbourne in advertising media land. Do you have a take on that, Ben?

Ben Willee

Yeah, I always thought that if Kyle wanted to ingrain himself with Melburnians, all he needed to do was choose an AFL team and get thrown out of a few restaurants or the races or some other very Melbourne event.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Bombers, are you proposing, Ben?

Ben Willee

Yeah. Well, I wouldn’t put that, that’s my own pain I wouldn’t put that on anyone being an Essendon supporter. I think he could have done a lot to endear himself, but the kind of person who’s gonna pay for his show in Melbourne or in Adelaide or Perth for that matter, doesn’t care that the majority of the latte-drinking, beret-wearing, art history lovers, what they think of him. They love that he’s a rogue those people love the way he thinks and talks and he’s unfiltered. In many ways, I think getting thrown off the air, we can argue whether he was thrown off or left or whatever, I think that’s probably worked really well for his brand.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Karl Stefanovic is sitting at 200,000 subscribers, according to Karl, on YouTube. You talked about scale, so is that a far stronger proposition for a client than 30,000 paid?

Ben Willee

Yes, absolutely. And look the thing about it is, is a lot of what we do in advertising is what we would call upper funnel. And if the bottom of the funnel is people doing a Google search saying, I want this product, and they convert immediately, what we do in the upper funnel is about building brand awareness and building brand perception, so when you fall into it, you recognize that brand and you have a point of view. And one of the key metrics to upper funnel marketing is reaching a lot of people or reaching a lot of relevant people. So that’s why audio and radio has always been very powerful for brands, because it enables us to make an investment in our future customers.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Right. So we create that kind of ambient level of awareness and then the work is done after that.

Ben Willee

Precisely.

Irene Hulme (Host)

So if someone’s paying, does that imply there’s greater intent when they hear a marketing message? Are they more likely to react?

Ben Willee

That- that’s a really good point and you could very much make the argument that they’re more engaged. So there are certain types of programs and content that has higher engagement, and the talk radio sector have argued this very successfully, that people tend to be more engaged to talk radio because you have to listen to follow what’s going on. And if you paid for something, almost invariably, you’re more likely to be engaged in what that is. So, you could say his subscribers could be more valuable to the right advertisers because they’re more likely to listen, they’re more likely to be engaged, and they’ve absolutely shown intent.

Craig Bruce (Host)

a bit about data, Ben. It’s in the job title, so where does the value of data come into this? So Kyle is about to own or know who subscribes, how often they watch, what they finish, what they click, what they purchase, if he has merchandise, when they cancel. So that first-party relationship is very different to the one that radio has traditionally offered. So as a marketer, is that more valuable than a legacy audience?

Ben Willee

It is. Look, and data’s really interesting in this situation. And if you think about traditional media companies, they’re their own biggest clients. So if we’re talking about Southern Cross Austero being able to promote a podcast or a show in some of your biggest segments, or if you’re Triple M, you can promote the footy, and when you’re in the footy, you can promote Mick Molloy, etc. etc. That’s really, really powerful. And I think this leans us into what’s gonna be the evolution of Kyle’s business model here. And it’s a bit like the effect that Spotify has had on music content creators is, is they need to tour and they need to sell more merch and they need to do more with fans. And I would argue that Kyle’s gonna have to do the same. And in his shoes, there’ll be stuff that people will pay for, and it might be Kyle Live. I mean, people pay to go and see their favourite podcasters live. So why wouldn’t I pay to sit in a bar and drink beer and get engaged in a, in a Kyle podcast, a VIP meet and greet, a Kyle hat, Make Radio Great Again, I imagine it’ll say or something like that.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Stealing that. That’s good.

Craig Bruce (Host)

I think you’re right.

Ben Willee

So I think the data in this case is what he can know about his audience. And then what’ll happen is, they’ll come to someone like me and they’ll say, Hey, Ben, here’s what we know about Kyle’s audience. And they’ll look for an angle, and that angle might be, Hey, they’re predominantly young men and they’ve got high disposable income and they’re all tradies and they’re not married and they don’t have the handbrake that is children and all of the other stuff in their lives, and they spend a lot on alcohol and utes and holidays and all of a sudden, advertisers like me say, Okay, well, I know they’re significantly over-indexed on utes, so that’s really powerful to one of the new Chinese ute manufacturers who wants to get involved.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Is it common practice that advertisers can access that data?

Ben Willee

Very common. And that’s, that’s the key to what we would call media sales. So companies trying to sell to people like me who make recommendations to advertisers. Sometimes there’s too much data, all right? Sometimes I say, Please stop. No more slides. Just, just give me the top line.

Irene Hulme (Host)

So it’s not gonna be enough for Kyle to say, We’ve got, so many downloads. Advertisers wanna see actual data.

Ben Willee

Yes. Yeah. And for him when we think about how we trade audio or how we trade podcasts or this sort of stuff, is we tend to trade with, and let’s take one of the big networks. We’ll say we’ll take 50, maybe 100 podcasts. We’ll buy a cost per thousand of X. We’ll vet those podcasts to make sure environmentally they’re not dangerous to our particular brand or they’re not off-topic, and then away we go. So he’s actually got a harder job to do than perhaps what some of the big networks will do. But the flip side of that is he’s got complete control. So if he decides he likes a brand, and that brand might be a beer brand, he can actually film himself drinking it and he can, he can effectively chase them, right? So it flips that discussion in a way that we perhaps haven’t seen before.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Yeah I was thinking about that. So, what could Kyle sell if it’s not a 32nd spot? So, founding partners, live streams, sponsors, studio naming rights, brand-funded interview series, member events, VIPs, all those sorts of things that you talked about before. And I’m assuming that these sorts of partnerships, are the things that brands are valuing more and more in this new creator economy. It’s 32nd spots, great start, but what else can we do in partnership with the creator? Am I right there, Ben?

Ben Willee

Oh, you’re bang on. And there’s this really healthy debate going on about, are the reels and the clips that are on social media part of the show, or are they promotion or both? And I don’t know what the answer is. And a perfect example of that is, if I was Kyle, I’d be selling a branded mic sock. So I’d get rid of the gold microphone. I’d sell beer brand X mic sock. So not only when people are watching him, but when those clips come together and he’s said something that’s all of a sudden gone viral, well, my brand is then on all of those clips, and it’s impossible for Meta or TikTok to edit that out. And all of a sudden, that brand can be associated with that controversy, and that might be one of the ways that he can sell additional reach to people like me. He can say, Look, I’ve now got 3 million followers, and on average, they’re watching 3 reels a week. And behind me is an enormous screen with your logo. There you go, Mr. or Mrs. Advertiser, isn’t that great?

Irene Hulme (Host)

Kyle is on a new platform, but he’s doing a traditional is probably not the right word. He’s doing a radio show, essentially, on a new platform. So do you think the playbook, the radio sponsorship playbook is still relevant in this scenario? So he does Birthday Wheel, which is a segment, and there’s a sponsor with a prize. Is that at all relevant and valuable.

Ben Willee

It is, but he’s got to find a way to integrate Birthday Wheel beyond just what happens on the show. So he’s got to make that clippable, or he’s got to be able to, let the client put some of their products in the wheel, there’s a million other things. His team are gonna have to work a bit harder than traditional salespeople would because they won’t necessarily have the reach in the 1st instance.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Hey, let’s talk about categories, Ben. I’m sure there are brands out there who are not afraid to run head 1st into the fire, and I’m guessing these would be, gambling companies, men’s grooming brands, Bitcoin, other forms of tech. Is that a place that you could start in terms of, Okay, well, do we think about this in the way of categories of, brands that we could potentially work with? Is that, is that a place that they might be thinking of starting a broader discussion around sponsorship and partnerships?

Ben Willee

Yep. And that’s what a traditional sales team would do. They’ll say, Okay, well, let’s look at A, categories that aren’t dangerous to us, and B, let’s look at categories that are growing and competitive. And gambling’s a really interesting one because if you look at sports rights, and if you look at the recent NRL or AFL rights, they’ve gone for an absolute bomb. We’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars a year and part of the reason is the media companies know they can run an auction to gambling companies. So they know there are 5 gambling companies who want to have the 1st ad before the ball bounces or kickoff or the first ball is bowled. So what he’ll be doing is, looking for exactly the categories you’ve mentioned, the ones that tend to target young men. Those young men actually like the fact that he’s controversial. They like the fact that he says things that upset other people, and because those brands are built on being different. And this is a bit of what we’re talking about here. So this is the tribal nature of what he’s trying to achieve. So Harley-Davidson owners don’t just buy motorcycles, they buy a lifestyle and a statement. Footy fans don’t just buy memberships, they buy belonging. So what he’s got to do is find those tribes and those categories that help with his sense of belonging.

Irene Hulme (Host)

What do you think about in terms of MFW, so the Mad Effing Witches? So Kyle is not running inventory, as we know, but brands that are, that are associated with the project, do you think there’s a chance that the MFW might come after those brands as well?

Ben Willee

Oh, without a doubt. I mean, the MFW exists on firing up and aggressively activating a whole bunch of, of their followers. So the more angrier they can get people and the more evidence of misdeeds in their eyes, that’s better. So I have absolutely no doubt. But if I’m Crypto.com, could I give a stuff what the MFW says? Absolutely not. Certain other brands definitely will. So I think they’ll be very clever about who they choose and who has the guts to just say to the MFW, “Well, thank you. We’ve heard what you said, but if you don’t like Kyle, don’t pay, don’t listen.” And that’ll be the irony of it, isn’t it? They’ll, they’ll be posting on social media, “Guess what he said today?” And I’ll be thinking, “Well, I wonder which one of you has increased his bank balance and then be outraged.” It’s sort of illogical, isn’t it?

Craig Bruce (Host)

Yeah, pay to be outraged. Well, that is the model. They ask for money so that their followers can be outraged. Kyle no longer on Idol, we’ll just take a sideways turn for a moment. That’s got to be a Channel 7 decision, isn’t it? I mean, I know Kyle is saying, “I walked away for the good of the brand,” but I can’t think of Kyle walking away for selfless reasons. Do you think that’s purely MFW-related?

Ben Willee

I think MFW is a big part of it. And we’ve got to remind the listeners that Channel 7 and Southern Cross Austereo are now merged. So theoretically, the Witches could go after the merged entity and say, “Hey, what you’re doing on Channel 7 TV show relates to what happens on Fox and what happens on Triple M.” And I know it’s a long bow but those businesses are going through a lot of change at the moment, and I think they’ve just taken a conservative approach and said, ” what? This is the last thing we need at the moment while we’ve got a bed down a merger.” And try and, as I said before, use their media to be their own biggest clients and use television and audio to promote the other ones. And you’re already starting to hear that. If you listen to football on Triple M, you’re already starting to hear them talk about football on the TV, etc. etc.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Yeah I hadn’t thought. You’re right, surely Southern Cross Austereo there’d be someone, in terms of their talent pool that would take Kyle’s place. That makes perfect sense.

Ben Willee

And they’re not paying their talent more, so I’m sure there’s there’s 5 or 6 of them saying, Hey, I’m available. When do we start filming?

Irene Hulme (Host)

Yes, good point.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Hey, Ben, who are the creators, um, that are getting this right in Australia right now? That, the ones that have taken like a full 360-degree approach to the commerce side of, of content? Can you think of any off the top of your head that we can look to go that’s a model that seems to be working?

Ben Willee

I don’t think there’s anyone who’s done what he’s done, and he’s completely rejected… There are frameworks for this there’s Patreon, there’s other systems that already exist to do this. And he said, No, no, I’m gonna build it from scratch. So that in itself is quite ballsy and says that clearly there’s someone behind the scenes thinking about how to grow it in a way that suits them. But The obvious one to me would be someone like the Inspired Unemployed. I think they’re really great content creators, and they’re funny. I mean, they’ve launched beer brands, they’ve launched a TV show…

Craig Bruce (Host)

Travel company

Ben Willee

… really off the back of social, right? And a podcast as well. So they’re coming at it from a slightly different angle, but there’s a lot of precedence, and there’s a lot of evidence. And, I don’t know if you can cast your mind back, but remember when pay TV was introduced in Australia? There was universal outrage. Oh, I’m gonna have to pay for the footy. And government actually set up what they call the anti-siphoning legislation to keep certain sports on free-to-air telly. But we can change behaviour, it’s just bloody hard. And we’ve done it with, television. We’ve started paying for television. We’ve done it with audio to a degree. We’ve part started paying for Spotify. I mean, what’s next? Are they gonna charge us to walk along the beach on a Saturday morning? I hope not.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Depends on the beach. Not one of those shitty Melbourne ones, Ben. That’s for sure.

Irene Hulme (Host)

No beaches in Melbourne anymore. Ben, if I said to you Albo and Ben Roberts-Smith were the 1st guests for Kyle within that 1st week, what would you say, from a media buyer’s perspective?

Ben Willee

From a media buyer’s perspective, I would say Ben Roberts-Smith is, he would know better and not do an interview at this point. I’m sort of unusually positioned in this space because I’ve been 20 years in the Royal Australian Navy Reserve, and I understand the importance of the rules of engagement when it comes to war fighting. I think there would be very few brands that would wanna be associated with Ben Roberts-Smith, apart from one political party. Albo’s a really interesting one because he’s still got huge support in Australia. So I just don’t think he wants to be that polarizing straight away. I think he probably wants to build up his audience and his credibility before he invites his mate Albo on. And there’s definitely a place for him, but just not as his 1st guest. His 1st guest would be, what’s that lady who has sex with thousands of men?

Craig Bruce (Host)

Bonny Blue.

Ben Willee

I think would be a much safer bet than the Prime Minister. Oh, God. Can I say that out loud?

Craig Bruce (Host)

A much safer bet than Albo. Bloody hell. Hey, Ben, so you’ve talked, across the last 20 minutes about this idea of change and habits and routines can change, but they do take time. My question for you and I guess for Kyle would be, he’s talked on other podcasts this week about, he’s got enough subs to set him up for the 1st three years without any stress. I think it’s gonna take a while though, isn’t it? He’s gonna need runway. From everything that we’re seeing at the moment, I don’t get a sense that it’s gonna be 50 thousand subs on day one. It just doesn’t feel like that’s about to happen. What’s your sense of it at the moment, Ben?

Ben Willee

Yeah, I would agree with that. And some people say the most successful product launch in modern history is the UK example of when Sky launched the at-home pay TV box when they took, This is Sky in the UK, when they took the soccer rights off the BBC, and they had a pay-at-home box, and they went into about 20 odd percent of homes in, less than 6 months. I don’t think that’s gonna happen either, and I think he’s just gotta keep reminding people that he is a viable alternative, and he’s an alternative that is worth paying for. Now, behavior change in marketing, and especially in our media habits, are really, really hard. I mean, you guys use the expression P ones. A lot of media talk about rusted-on listeners, rusted-on readers. So, personally, it’s gonna take him a long time, and he’s just gotta keep insulting people or being controversial along the way to recruit more people.

Craig Bruce (Host)

That’s easy. Job done. Hey, finally, Ben, how do independent creators work when it comes to connecting with people like you? So, I mean, you deal with sales teams or the sales teams of all the major media companies around Australia. But, I’m guessing Kyle’s gonna need some kind of a sales team at some point, or a head of partnerships. What do you think that might look like?

Ben Willee

Yeah, there’ll be a team. I think Mark Bouris is an interesting example. I mean, he does a podcast, he does videos, he sells that to advertisers, so that’s another precedent. And he’s got some salespeople in there with him who reach out to people like me and, you, try and get us over the line. I think what brands are really craving at the moment, which is tricky, is social content. Anyone can make shit, but you wanna make something that people wanna watch. So how does a brand who has built a social following, is in a conversation with people who are interested in that brand, continue with that conversation with good quality content? And that’s really, really tricky. So maybe Kyle and his team might be able to use some of their talents in the content creator space to add value to the deals that they do.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Do you think YouTube is an important part of the mix?

Ben Willee

A video aspect to it is, I think is very important. And, I think what we’re seeing now is people are starting to watch podcasts on video. And if you look at Netflix has really got into podcasts for no other than that reason, is that people might be cooking dinner, and they’ll put their favourite podcast on. And effectively, they’re listening, and it’s an audio medium. But then as a publisher, they can sell a video ad unit, and a video ad unit can command a premium compared to an audio ad unit.

Craig Bruce (Host)

It’s just such a fascinating story that’s gonna open up over the next little period of time. Obviously, the launch happens on Monday. So back to that original statement that you made. You sound bullish, Ben, around, the potential for this.

Ben Willee

Yeah, I’m bullish for the potential for this, and I think because 30 years ago, there were fewer brands in Australia, and you could argue they were less differentiated, and they were all targeting the, white middle-class families. And we now have this huge diversity of brands, and we have brands that are really, really keen on cutting through. And with the right brand, this would be a great opportunity. And if you can cast your mind back, do you remember the cash for comment inquiry? You 2 would been working in radio then, I mean, John Laws revealed that Star City Casino were paying him 250 grand a year just to be positive about them and casinos. So, I know that was a long time ago and it was a different business, but in the right circumstances, there is definitely a significant amount of incremental money for this organization to make if they get it right and if they bet it down. I don’t think I’d be brave enough to be the 1st advertiser, but there will be someone out there, who’s probably already knocking on his door.

Irene Hulme (Host)

And Ben, if you had to choose between having Ben Roberts-Smith and getting ears on the app and eyes and scale versus not being so controversial and having a smaller audience, which one would you choose?

Ben Willee

Oh, I’d choose controversy every day of the week just because for someone like him, there’s only one thing worse than being talked about, and that’s not being talked about. So, I think they’re, they’re working I know Bruno was on your show recently and he said the whiteboard is empty, but I reckon there’s probably 20 names on that whiteboard who are all, especially, in the lead up to a state election in Victoria, who are very keen to get on that whiteboard and make their point. But he’s also gotta balance that I’m sure his audience aren’t that into politics. This isn’t right-wing US Fox News. This is still mainstream Australia.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Yeah. No, you’re absolutely right. Yeah, watching him pin his ears back. It’s gonna be on like Donkey Kong from Monday. Knowing that guest list, Reni, it’s gonna be trouble.

Ben Willee

You 2 are the experts. If you were the producer of his show or, someone down there, who would you be trying to get?

Irene Hulme (Host)

Oh, that’s a great question.

Craig Bruce (Host)

I wouldn’t be thinking too much about guests at the moment, they haven’t rehearsed, they haven’t done any run-throughs. And he will be laughing at me, if he’s listening at the moment because that’s just not how he works anyway. But I think they’ve gotta get the basic idea behind the show sounding right initially. It has to flow well. And, it has to be a good experience for people that have just paid $99 to watch. So any clunkiness, ideally in a perfect world, Ben, they would’ve done a week of dress rehearsals leading up so everyone is following cues and knowing where everyone is sitting and what they’re doing. And it’s gonna be really clunky on Monday, and that might be fine but you’re inviting feedback which could be it’s not like this professional, well-run Kyle and Jackie O breakfast show. So week one for me, if I was running it, it would be just let’s get our chemistry right. Yeah, let’s have some great conversations about things that people are interested in and we’ll worry about guests down the track.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Have you signed up, Ben?

Ben Willee

No, I haven’t. I’m hoping that they’re gonna be listening to this podcast and thinking I might have a client who’s interested and very kindly offer me a free subscription. I’ve got 3 children, so I, I can’t afford another subscription in our house. We’ve got everyone, including dog.com.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Too many mouths to feed. Ben Willee, executive director of media and data at Spinach Advertising. Great to have you back on the podcast, mate.

Ben Willee

Thank you very much for having me.

Craig Bruce (Host)

Talk soon.

Irene Hulme (Host)

Thanks, Ben.